– INTRO –
Akane Kanai Call out culture. Cancel culture. Performative wokeness. Lately, there’s been a lot of discussion of how political dialogue takes place in online culture. This is tricky territory and there’s been a lot of hot takes on this. There are a lot of people who make fun of what they call ‘snowflakes’, overly sensitive millennials and Gen Z-ers. It’s clear that many such commentators do not necessarily prioritise practical questions about how we talk about social justice or the people who are actually trying to make things better for others. At the same time, there are real repercussions to the rise of online incivility. It’s not just a ‘boomer’ thing to critique how call outs happen. It might be something that unites many generations in thinking about how we can discuss difficult, political, and sensitive issues in which we’re all implicated.
In Part 3 of Feminist, Not Fearless, a 4-part miniseries on contemporary feminist culture, I track how young feminists navigate a love-hate relationship with online feminist dialogue across different platforms and I also speak to an expert on digital peacebuilding. While many of my participants tried to stay out of the way of conflict online, they also spoke of the continual pressures to be visible and to be outspoken – producing conditions for drama. I’m not talking about ‘cancelling’ famous people online in this episode per se. I’m talking about the constant anxiety that ordinary people like my feminist participants felt in relation to calling out and being called out online.
My name’s Akane Kanai. I’m a researcher and teacher of identity, media, and popular culture, at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia, situated on the unceded lands of the Kulin nations. This podcast is about my research into contemporary feminist cultures and social media.
A content note for this episode: I will be discussing sexual assault and abuse.
– PART 1 –
Akane Kanai There’s a popular conception that online culture makes things easy to access; that it is simple to ‘inform yourself’ of particular issues and debates. This is true up to a point. Yes, if you want to find a definition on Wikipedia, or check the results of an election. But with feminism, a highly political, identity-based movement, this is less straightforward.
As a researcher, I can tell you that its histories are incredibly complex. There isn’t one way of being ‘right’ in feminism. Scholars don’t agree on many foundational frameworks. Terms like ‘patriarchy’ and ‘intersectionality’ are actually, incredibly contested in terms of their politics and their use – from many different feminist perspectives.
But you don’t have to be situated in a university environment to encounter complexity. What really stood out to me, from speaking with my young feminists, was how feminist social media cultures produce a moving feast of vocabulary, ideas, and trends. And online environments move a lot faster than published papers; new feminist standards and faux pas were constantly shifting. In the speed of this environment, you couldn’t expect anyone to be patient with you, and I’m talking about within feminist groups. We’re not talking trolls, abusers, etc. For example, Tanya, a veteran of feminist social media at the age of 28, observed in the feminist Facebook groups she was part of:
Tanya What I tended to see in a lot of these groups were people who didn’t necessarily have ill intent, but perhaps didn’t know the most up-to-date language or didn’t yet have the words and the vocabulary to be able to clearly and sensitively articulate what they were trying to say and the way in which they could at times be, what I would call, attacked, was really quite disheartening and I’m sure, yeah, it would have been for them too.
Akane Kanai My participants told me that it was presumed to be ‘on you’ to find the appropriate group for your ‘level’, but, in the relative openness of the internet, it wasn’t as though social groups were called ‘introduction to feminism’ or ‘intermediate feminist theory’. so, how this was achieved practically was trial and error, with the potential for embarrassment constantly looming if you weren’t the right fit.
More broadly, it became clear that the presumed ease of access to information meant that as a feminist, you had to be continually aware of what was going on. This was overwhelming even for many of my sophisticated feminists. Ollie, a young nonbinary feminist told me:
Ollie “I feel like there’s just so, like we’re so bombarded with information, like there is just so much information. So it’s like if I make a post, there are always gonna be a thousand things that I’m leaving out. Like I can’t put everything in one kind of thing. And I think that kind of stresses me out. That’s something that overwhelms me. And that sometimes is why I’m like hesitant to repost things because like, there’s so many different sides of that issue.
Akane Kanai Ollie was wary of ‘getting it wrong’ when there was so much information.
Indeed, there’s a lot of information out there online. The sheer volume and speed of updates, news, scandals, is considerable. Furthermore, this content is now accessed most often through your personal devices, at home, and at any time. This kind of ‘infoglut’ as Mark Andrejevic, a scholar of surveillance and the internet, puts it, blurs the line between public and private, ‘outside’ and ‘inside’.
And I don’t think we can underestimate the potential toll this can take for feminist onlookers, where the political is often personal, and feminist ‘news’ tends to be the type that foregrounds abuse, assault, and human rights violations. Being connected and ‘in the know’ in online feminist cultures thus was emotionally intense. For 21 year old Margot:
Margot TikTok is just FULL ON. TikTok is exhausting and I love it because I think it’s funny, but I absolutely fucking hate it at the same time, but then because Instagram is like my main social media account, I do have to detox from Instagram ‘cos sometimes it does get a bit full on. I found actually around like when Brittany Higgins was speaking out about her allegations in Parliament House, I found that really full on.
Clip: ‘In 2021, Brittany Higgins became known across Australia, after she…’ ‘Brittany Higgins says she was raped by a colleague in a Minister’s office in March 2019. She didn’t initially pursue…’
Akane Kanai Brittany Higgins was a staffer working in Parliament house, where federal legislation is made in Australia. Higgins was raped by a colleague and reported this to her supervisors, but her report was largely ignored. The news broke in early 2021 and made significant waves around Australia. Particularly for my participants who had also experienced sexual assault and abuse, this was exhausting, but almost impossible to avoid as a headline social media story.
Another scandal that proved impossible to avoid in 2022, was the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp litigation which spilled from online circulation to general workplace chatter. Crystal, a domestic violence survivor and a student who worked as a server, couldn’t avoid people’s hot takes on this case while she served up brunch. For social worker Melissa, this was extremely triggering:
Melissa I will also be very honest and upfront and say that I avoided most of the coverage of the Amber Heard Johnny Depp thing. I just was not in the right headspace to deal with that particular, I guess, legal proceeding at the time. I could see that it was being twisted in so many different ways by different commentators that regardless of who wanted to talk to me about it, I just went, no, I’m not discussing this with you.
Akane Kanai Melissa had been in an abusive relationship in the past. The Heard-Depp case hit too close to home, stirring up what she termed ‘preexisting nightmares’ about the messiness of the relationship where she said, she also didn’t feel ‘blameless’. FYI: we’ve used a voice actor for Melissa here.
If we consider that many people who are invested in social justice are often drawn to particular issues via their own experiences of marginalisation and oppression, it seems important to actively presume that the audiences of these scandals may have their own histories of abuse. I return to Tanya, who also was a survivor of childhood sexual assault and partner violence.
Tanya I think the biggest thing that that trial and the public’s response to that trial made me realize is that I don’t think a lot of people have an understanding of what it’s like to be a domestic violence survivor and that perhaps survivors are not necessarily perfect in their own actions.
The general response, the public response, the media response wasn’t necessarily surprising to me, although it obviously wasn’t ideal in my eyes. But I think what I found the most hurtful or triggering or upsetting was responses of people that I know, whether it’s people that I’m close to and their take on that situation and the ease with which they raised that with me, but predominantly in places like the workplace conversations cropping up about that sort of thing and the statements that were made about it were definitely not wonderful to hear.
Akane Kanai I now want to add another layer of complexity into this discussion. I don’t want to give the impression that, just because someone might have experienced abuse or assault, or may be continuing to experience it, that their online interactions are only nurturing, soft, or conflict-avoidant. Indeed, people might have a lot of anger and hurt that comes out through aggressive online speech.
What my young feminists also discussed was the danger of being sucked into the pleasure of being angry online. While feminists have long held up the importance of anger as a political emotion, there are big differences in how different groups are able to deploy it. In social media culture, according to Natalia, a young, white social worker:
Natalia I think people call it white Twitter feminism and I think it can be really harmful actually. I got quite sucked into that at some point where I was like really aggressive, angry, and it was just like really simple feminism that didn’t take into account I guess the complexities of everyday life. And it was just making big issues into like really simple statements and just really quite damaging language.
Akane Kanai There was also a sense of perceived status that came with a good ‘call out’ in particular groups, but this could create a really difficult environment to inhabit. This made another of my participants momentarily leave Twitter as a platform. We’ve used a voice actor for her here, which she requested particularly given the experiences she had navigating online conversations.
Speaker Like there were just kind of particular people in that environment who were kind of seen as like the leaders in that space and no matter what, no matter how ridiculous their opinion was, it was like, people would just kind of like parrot it because it’s like, oh, the correct person has said this. And even though yeah, the opinion might be ridiculous or it might actually be unfair towards people or things like that. It was just kind of like, well, you know like, this person said it, so it must be correct. And trying to push back on that at all, in any way was basically impossible. And you were ostracized basically for it.
Akane Kanai Right. And when you say ostracize, what would that look like in an online space?
Speaker It looked like things like, you know, arguments being had, but not like in the sense of, oh, you know, I disagree with your idea, I want to talk about it. It would be like, you know, the bigger players in the space, getting everyone they know to unfollow that person or calling them out as a bad person or things like that. Like total ostracization from like the space basically.
– PART 2 –
Akane Kanai This episode I also have a special guest with me here today, Emma Baumhofer, an expert who can help us connect these concerns with other big picture questions about how online dialogue takes place.
Emma Baumhofer Hey Akane, thanks for having me on this side of the microphone.
Akane Kanai Thanks for being here. It’s nice to have your actual voice on this podcast. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Emma Baumhofer My name is Emma Baumhofer. I work in the field of digital peacebuilding and I’m also helping to produce this podcast.
Akane Kanai Could you say a few words about why you are interested in being involved in the podcast and how it connects to your own feminist journey?
Emma Baumhofer I mean, first of all, I love the premise of the research. The idea to ask feminists to share their very personal experiences about feminism, and then checking in on how these philosophies are evolving over time, for me, this is a very alluring place to start. And then something that has really struck me in making this podcast is the intergenerational nature of feminism. Because a lot of what the participants are talking about, I mean, it does feel very familiar to me in my own feminist journey, but then there are other aspects that definitely feel different, even from feminists who are really not that much younger than me. And I think the level of access to digital spaces is one of these key differentiators, especially in these young years of figuring out what feminism is and like the different ways that you can engage with it. So for me, this has been a really interesting and thought-provoking part of producing this series.
Akane Kanai I think for me too, because basically we’re the same age. So I think that’s also been really interesting for me as a researcher working in this area and thinking about how much complexity there is in online spaces. But I wanted to get you on because I was also really interested in your own work in digital peacebuilding. So, my question is, if you can tell us a bit about the ways that you tackle online conflict in digital peacebuilding. Of course, it’s a different context that you work in, but I was interested in hearing about any connections you have.
Emma Baumhofer So digital peacebuilding is a broad term. It includes several different types of work, and one important aspect of digital peacebuilding is reducing violence in digital spaces. So one way that we can do this is by taking offline peacebuilding techniques, classic ones like mediation, de-escalation, facilitating dialogue, listening, and then bringing these skills into online spaces to intentionally create more peaceful engagement there.
I think one of the most important aspects of digital peacebuilding is actually just analyzing and understanding how technology impacts conflict. I mean, on this point, even though we might act different in online and offline spaces, those of us who are connected, I mean, we still are bringing our same selves into each space. So therefore it’s very easy for offline violence to spread online and then vice versa. And actually because of this, there’s even people who have very little or even no connection to the internet that can be affected by digital conflict drivers. So one of the biggest examples of this is misinformation, which can spread really fast on social media, and then it continues to spread offline through other modes like word of mouth or channels like the radio, for example. And so in this way, the false information and the speed at which technology enabled it to spread it very easily impacts people offline and then can instigate offline violence.
Akane Kanai Mm. So I have sort of noticed, I guess, in the spheres in which like my participants are talking about, and even in my own life, that often you can hear when people are picking up particular phrases or frameworks or particular ideas, and you know, it’s kind of an internet thing, but it means you are hearing it, I guess in your everyday space, there could be face-to-face, it could be in other contexts, but that is translating and permeating technically offline space as well.
Emma Baumhofer Yeah, exactly. I mean, as you just said, there’s certainly an online vocabulary that does not always translate to offline spaces. So it’s not like everything is exactly one-to-one. It’s more the point to emphasize that we take our offline selves with us online, and it’s part of how we interpret what we encounter there and also the other way around.
Akane Kanai Yeah, there’s that kind of real permeability between online and offline that comes through in your work. Anything else that you sort of keep in mind in relation to thinking through how technology might shape how conflict might occur?
Emma Baumhofer One other important point that I wanna highlight is that technology is not neutral. It actually has affordances that drive conflict. So I’m talking about things like, like for what I just mentioned, the speed at which mis and disinformation can spread, but also things like how easy it is to surveil people online or to censor people online. And then additionally, I’m talking about things like the actual features of the platforms or the algorithms, and importantly, the business models that actually reward conflict and aggression and promote polarization and exacerbate existing inequalities because technology is embedded into our existing power structures, including gendered ones. So it can very, very easily reinforce these offline inequalities.
Akane Kanai I think that’s such a good point to make because even though I think many of us are aware of that, it’s just good to be reminded that it isn’t a neutral space. It isn’t completely up to you as to how your words might be taken up or how things might land.
So I wanted to ask as well, we’ve just been talking about the landscape of online conflict. What are some ideas for creating more peaceful conditions for dialogue online?
Emma Baumhofer Yeah, thanks for asking that, because I do like to talk about the huge opportunity that digital brings as well. I mean, instead of spending most of my time here talking about digital conflict drivers, I would love to be talking more about digital peace drivers. Like how can we build technology that actually rewards the type of behavior that makes us feel good interacting online? I mean, some of these tools already exist. There are some really interesting options that can be effective in certain contexts. Not everything fits everywhere, but when I work with partners to design a digital peacebuilding program, for example, I mean, then we have the chance to actually choose what tools we want to use and to think about how we really intentionally wanna facilitate the space to have a peaceful dialogue between different stakeholders. And this can be done even if we’re trying to discuss like really polarizing issues.
But of course, what I just described is not the usual experience of most people, like your participants, for example, when they engage online, it’s just entering social media. It’s not these facilitated spaces necessarily.
One thing that is definitely needed I think, is increased digital literacy across generations. it’s about understanding the impact and the influence of technology onto us both as individuals, but also onto our communities. So when we think about the way technology is influencing us, then, let’s try to think about how we can take responsibility, like what are the actual repercussions of my behavior online? And then I think maybe try to return the favor and have a little bit of grace or understanding for others that we encounter online. I mean, because basically I wish there were features built into the social media platforms that we’re using that encourage everyone to have increased dialogue or to stop and think before thoughtlessly re-sharing or leaving snarky comments or far worse comments.
But these just, these guardrails are not yet built into the platforms, so therefore, we have to try to do it ourselves. So I mean, it can be a great exercise to just take a breath and wait a minute, if you can, or even a whole day, if possible, before reacting to something online. And I’m not trying to say that the onus is on individuals on the internet. I think there’s a lot more that needs to be done to reduce hate online, but it can help when we’re talking about spaces where we interact often and that we hope to learn from, and some of these small techniques can help make those spaces more productive.
Akane Kanai Beyond shifting the big picture of the platforms that make up our everyday then, it seems that it might be useful to think about multiple perspectives; and not just what you say, but how you say it. This is an ongoing conversation and not one we can resolve in a day, but I wanted to end on Jillian, one of my participants who is very thoughtful about these questions, a queer poet and a very wise participants.
Jillian I think there’s always danger when people are issuing cultural absolutes and feeling good about issuing cultural absolutes, and then just, that being… that being I guess the social culture of platforms here and there. I think all of the issues are just nuanced and as soon as there’s a lack of nuance, there’s danger in what the discourse is doing or not doing. At that point it doesn’t really matter what the content was because the framework that it’s being discussed in, or the social situation that it’s in, is acting in a way that I would describe as not being, I don’t know about it not being feminist, but as soon as something becomes kind of toxic and someone saying this is the definitive way it absolutely is no matter what, then nobody’s learning.
– CREDITS –
Thanks for listening to Feminist Not Fearless, in an ongoing conversation about contemporary feminist cultures. If you liked it, please share it. This podcast is written by me, Akane Kanai, and supported by Monash University and the Australian Research Council.
In our next and final episode, I will have a very special guest, one of the participants in my project, Gbonmi Olobudun, who has graciously given their time again to be discussing one of the big issues of the project, ‘when inclusion hurts’.
Special thanks to Emma Baumhofer, the show’s producer, for appearing in this episode. Also a big thank you to my participants for letting us share their interviews here. Melissa May is our audio engineer. Music is by Ben Hallinan. Natasha Zeng is research assistant on this project. Additional support from Gareth Popplestone and Doug Donaldson from the Monash Media Lab.
Further links:
- Akane Kanai and Natasha Zeng on the competitive nature of expertise online
Digital Feminist Futures - Home of the Feminist Not Fearless Podcast 