– INTRO –
Akane Kanai Recently, inclusion has been a huge buzzword in feminism, in progressive politics, and social media culture. You can’t not be inclusive. It’s often conflated with another big buzzword at the moment, ‘intersectionality’, a framework for understanding how different facets of identity such as race, gender, and class, intersect at the same time. Today, on the last episode of Feminist Not Fearless, a 4-part mini-series about contemporary feminist culture and social media, we’re talking about ‘when inclusion feels bad’.
My name’s Akane Kanai. I’m a researcher and teacher of identity, media, and popular culture, at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia, situated on the unceded lands of the Kulin nations. This podcast is about my research into contemporary feminist cultures and social media.
– PART 1 –
Akane Kanai It’s assumed inclusion is best intersectional practice, that it’s always a good thing, and that it’s necessary for political alliances, but, what are the power dynamics around including? Who has the power to decide to include and who are those to ‘be included’? Is being included and united always necessary for social justice?
Esther Alloun It overlooks the kind of incommensurable differences that exist between different people, different struggles and different agendas. It’s easy to lump things together and say that it’s all you know a challenge of oppression and challenging power but, but really, sometimes, these interests don’t necessarily align.
Akane Kanai That’s Esther Alloun, a researcher at the University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia, talking about the problems with ‘inclusion’ as a silver bullet for social justice concerns. I talked to her about her PhD research on activism in Israel-Palestine and what it can tell us about building political alliances and working together.
Note – this interview is about fieldwork undertaken in 2017 and 2018.
Esther Alloun My research really looked at animal rights and human rights activism in the context of Israel and occupied Palestine. So, if I had to put it in a nutshell, I would say that I looked at the capacity of different activists to negotiate alliances between human and animal rights struggle in, in that context. So that means that I traveled to Israel and Palestine, so specifically to different cities in Israel and in the West Bank to interview activists, to follow them, to campaign with them, to share their daily lives. Actually in what’s been published, often is, there’s not a lot of literature around actual examples of what that looks like or why is it so hard to build those alliances.
So to give you a very concrete example, you know, for Palestinians who are stuck under military rule, you know, in the West Bank or in Gaza, for them to defend their self-determination to say, we want a state or we want to survive, it doesn’t necessarily… is compatible with the idea that, okay, well we need to stop also eating animals and we need to stop fishing and we need to stop all of that because it’s also like a daily struggle for this kind of survival and, and freedom.
Akane Kanai So people do not necessarily share the same priorities or interests, even if their goals might have some alignment. And they don’t necessarily want to be co-opted by dominant groups who are working in similar spaces.
Esther Alloun These sorts of examples of like clashing interests are often obscured or overlooked in this idea that we can just, yeah, let’s, let’s have an alliance of, of people, and sometimes also, you know, I met Palestinians again, they have their own agency, they have their own agendas and they didn’t want to collaborate with Israelis to be co-opted within their struggles. And I think we see that with other intersectional struggles, whether it’s, you know, feminist and anti-racist struggles, for example, trying to converge. There’s lots of differences there that are not necessarily reconcilable, I guess. And we need to come to terms with that within intersectionality, I think.
Akane Kanai I see a relevant bridge for what we’re tackling in this podcast. It’s important to see different lived histories bring different priorities. For political alliances, we don’t have to be the same. Maybe, rather than being at the same ‘table’, we need to think about making space for different tables.
– PART 2 –
Akane Kanai For the rest of this final episode of Feminist Not Fearless, I want to do something a little different. I’ve invited one of my super thoughtful, articulate, and interesting participants, Gbonmi Olobudun, to join me in the studio to chat about inclusion and reflect on the project. We’re recording at Monash University, on Kulin nations land.
Gbonmi Olobudun It’s like weird cuz it’s like, usually when you hear yourself speak you don’t like hear yourself in that way, but it’s like playing back into your ears, like live.
Akane Kanai Now we know how it would be if we were ever to have our own like pop concert or something. So, Gbonmi, thank you so much for coming in today. Before we start, I was wondering if you could share your preferred pronouns for the listeners.
Gbonmi Olobudun So I use they them and he him pronouns.
Akane Kanai So, Gbonmi, you came onto this project in 2021. Yep. Gbonmi’s nodding. Before we get into it, I guess I was wondering, what were you expecting kind of going into the project and, just reflecting on it, what has it been like to have been part of it at the different stages over the last couple of years?
Gbonmi Olobudun That was actually something I was thinking about on my way here and even last night as I was, I was actually reading through my transcripts of like the past interviews, which was very funny because I realized that I am just so random. I say a lot of like out of pocket, like random, tangent things.
I think what I was expecting, I don’t think I was expecting what it actually was. I think if I’m being super honest, I was like, let me just jump into this project, let me get this gift card, like cool, I’m chilling. But then what it ended up being was like an interesting, at least for on my end, like an interesting form of self-reflection in that I’m looking back at a time, this project has kind of touched base with me at very transitional points in my life where, you know, I’m looking back at interviews where I was using a different name and completely different pronouns and had a completely different understanding of myself. But it’s interesting still despite that how strong those threads of like the basis of who I am still come through despite all of those changes. So that was, I think for me like a really an unexpected gift I would say.
Akane Kanai That’s really awesome to hear, and I think that really has struck me as well with a lot of participants. For one thing, you know, the pandemic has been a big thing, but also I think as young people there are so many massive changes that people often go through. But something that I think came up a lot in your insights every time we talked was a really reflective, and I think, I mean you say random, but intellectual approach to thinking about identity, power, and the politics of intersectional feminism and inclusion as it’s sort of appearing now. And the topic of this episode of the podcast is ‘when inclusion feels bad’ so I was wondering if maybe you could reflect on, you know, what comes up for you when you hear the term inclusion? What are your good vibes, bad vibes, neutral ambivalent vibes?
Gbonmi Olobudun So many vibes. I feel like the, one of the first things that comes to mind is those very classic and now almost quite copy-and-paste diversity and inclusion statements that you see on websites or on job advertisements or like on organizational strategies and values in their like About Us page. I think something that we spoke about quite a bit was this idea of like ‘a seat at a table’, quote unquote. And I think for me when I hear inclusion these days, I really just think of representation politics a lot. Like the idea of if there’s just someone who’s like representing each identity in a room, then that’s enough.
I think a lot of my vibes towards inclusion has been really like marred by, I think my experience like within like not-for-profit spaces and like social justice spaces. I think I’ve really been used as like what I want to call a ‘diversity unicorn’, where it’s like I tick off a lot of these, like a lot of the boxes at once as like a single person. And for me, I think what I realize is how shallow, not how shallow people can be, but more so how shallow the concept is in the sense that like, it feels like more of a virtue signal rather than something that’s deeply held in perhaps someone’s values or how they see themselves in the world. And it’s not maybe something that’s integrated into their sense of self like that, rather, rather more something that is, it’s almost like a badge to be like, look like, I’m inclusive, rather than something deeper.
At a personal level for me, like with the diversity unicorn thing, and I think this is where it falls flat with the inclusion, right? Is that people see me and they’re like, oh, African, black, dark-skinned, trans, this, that, this, that. But I come from a middle class family, I had a private school education, I’ve had a tertiary education. And so without understanding the privilege that comes with even even being able to speak a certain language or you know, be able to blend into white dominant spaces, I have an easier time with that compared to some of my peers who might share other identities with me but haven’t been exposed to these kind of like a class thing where it’s like these are experiences I’ve been able to have because of the financial privilege that I was born into. Right? And so I think what it leaves is that if someone, if our understanding of my understanding of intersectionality was just, just the way that I’m oppressed in society, it would be very shallow because it wouldn’t really look at the entirety of my experience as a whole. And I think that’s what people are often missing when it comes to these kinds of things.
Akane Kanai There was a, a quote from a previous interview when your pronouns were different. I’m wondering can I can say that out loud for you to react to. The quote that was really interesting was when you said, ‘It’s very much a point in time with the internet where it’s kind of cool to be a black woman, but also I don’t fully trust it.’ So that was a couple of years ago and I’m just wondering what you think about that now and what that coolness actually means?
Gbonmi Olobudun You know, it’s so funny cuz on the way here, I was listening to this podcast called Say Your Mind, with the presenter, her name is Kelechi and she was in the opening section she was just, she touched on a point which was that people are like falling over themselves to humble black women on the internet or just in general. And I literally had to pause the podcast to scream in my car that I have been saying this for years and like, as you, like I still agree. Shout out to me from a few ago, like there is like an optic of it being cool to be, oh, a black woman or a black non-binary person or whatever, whatever. But I don’t trust it because actually, what I’ve experienced is that it’s very much a tokenization. It’s very much a mammification and it’s only acceptable within the bounds of what people want to see a black woman or a black person do. And so it doesn’t actually allow for a full, for a full personhood or for someone to actually be a human.
To give a example, look at people like Megan Thee Stallion or Lizzo. People love to like you know, like tokenize them and say, oh “she’s my spirit animal, she’s my this, she’s my that.” First of all, they’re a person. Second of all, you shouldn’t be calling people your spirit animals. And third of all, that doesn’t allow room for people to make mistakes. It’s like a, it’s like a dehumanization that is like both, it both deifies you, puts you above others, and because it’s putting you above others, it’s removing your humanity and so it’s dehumanizing you at the same time.
And I think what’s really, what I feel is that it’s an optics thing. People want to be seen to be in relationship with people who, like say for example of a black woman, like if someone’s like, oh well I have this black friend, I’m friends with this black person, I have proximity to these people and therefore now I look like I’m more woke or whatever because of this proximity. And so that’s something that I’ve started to be very conscious of and I’ve realized, I’m like, oh people want to be up in my grill and they don’t always have the best intentions. And it’s not always a, it’s not like they’re consciously being like, oh I’m gonna, you know, come and prey on Gbonmi. No, like it’s definitely not always a conscious thing, but that doesn’t make it any less of a kind of shit experience for me is what I’m trying to say.
Akane Kanai Yeah, for sure. It’s not all rainbows when you’re a diversity unicorn.
Gbonmi Olobudun Yeah. [Laughs]
Akane Kanai I really liked how you mentioned the word proximity ‘cos there’s something about social media that makes certain people feel closer than others. Is there anything that you feel like you’ve seen online where you think that… that kind of speaks to wanting to be closer to diversity unicorns like yourself or you know, I guess I’m wondering, yeah, how does that proximity kind of work in what you’ve seen?
Gbonmi Olobudun I feel like one of the really funny ways that this whole proximity thing can play out is that, and I think particularly for me as someone who has that proximity to whiteness through my educational background, through my family background, what I’ve noticed is that when I go into say these social justice spaces or these not-for-profit spaces or whatever, people can initially feel more comfortable around me because I speak their language so to say, or I can blend in to a certain extent. But what I’ve realized is that, as soon as they realize that I’m not kind of just there to like smile and look good and go along with their agenda, then I can be very quickly outcasted. And so what I’ve experienced is like this being like kind of uplifted as this like, oh my gosh, Gbonmi’s so great and Gbonmi’s so so clever and I’m not really being actually uplifted for things that my actual skills or my, all the things I’m bringing to the table. Like they’re just wanting to uplift me ‘cos, oh look, I’m close to this young person who’s black and trans and oh my gosh, you know, like they want to just kind of showcase me almost as if I’m a little trophy that they want to take around. But then, as soon as I start putting, putting forth myself and actually being like, no, the way that you are treating my community is ridiculous, the way that you are behaving does not at all align with what you’re saying. Your stated values are X, y, and z and what you’re doing is a, b, and c, there’s a big mismatch.
And I’ve realized like when I start to like vocalize these things, I’m very quickly like, it’s like the topple, this is like what I’m saying about the deification being a dehumanization is that like, it’s also very, it’s unstable. There’s nothing to support that. And you very quickly fall from that grace as soon as people realize that you’re not going to quietly go along with the dominant narrative. That’s one thing I would say.
The other thing I would say is that I think this can kind of like play out in quote unquote ‘Melbourne scene’. I think like being seen next to certain people, it’s all the mechanisms of clout playing out from social media to real life, right? You get see, you get photographed next to some certain people, it gets put in a Story and now people see you out and they also wanna be seen next to you. And I think like having, having been absorbed in those spaces for a while, I realized that like I was speaking to people who actually had no, who didn’t care at all about what I was saying. Like I could’ve said anything. You know, they would’ve just, they would’ve just ate it up because it was more about that proximity rather than actually wanting to get to know me as a person. And that’s something that took me a while to actually understand that it was happening. Cuz I was like, it’s not something that you expect to happen to you. I mean for me, I don’t like see myself as like a cool person or whatever. So I’m just, I’m just here, I’m just chillin and I don’t expect people to approach me like that, but I’ve had to learn that can be what’s at play.
Akane Kanai Something that we’ve also talked about is the growth of the term intersectionality. What we’ve seen is that it’s really exploded through social media. I’m just going to quote a little bit of what you said at that point. You said ‘it’s very popular to be an intersectional environmentalist and an intersectional X, y, z, and actually everybody just overuses “intersectional”. In my opinion it’s become a bit of a buzzword. I’m very of two minds about it.’ So I’m wondering if you feel similarly in relation to intersectionality at this point. I guess what are the kind of continuing themes maybe that you’ve seen?
Gbonmi Olobudun Yeah, firstly, I have to say, shout out to me from a couple of years ago because, I still, I still agree with that. I still, I’m very of two minds about it. Like I think the, what Kimberlee Crenshaw set up as intersectionality versus what people talk about in the mainstream are two different things, is what I would say first.
What I’ve experienced is that most people understand intersectionality as an intersection of oppression only. And they do not identify with the parts of their identities that privilege them in society. And I think that’s, that is probably one of the biggest reasons why the concept itself has been diluted. Like, not because of the concept itself, but because of this unwillingness to identify with the parts of ourselves that privilege us in society. I also think that, for intersectionality to be a useful framework for people, it needs to be accompanied by a robust social analysis. Like, what I mean by that is there needs to be a clear understanding of how you go from racial capitalism and colonialism and trickle down to issues such as sexism and racism and transphobia and fat phobia and you know, like understanding that these things are actually how they, how they actually interwove and came from these things and how it’s actually all pieces of one puzzle, right? And I wouldn’t wanna lay the blame at the feet of like the general person, like I think it is very much a tool of white supremacy and a very underrated one at that, compartmentalisation, very underrated white colonial white supremacy tool because it’s a, I feel like it’s a divide and conquer tactic, right? You divide, you cut everything up into little, little pieces, right? And then now you distribute those little pieces and now you just have to choose a couple of those little pieces where it’s actually just one big piece of paper that’s just been cut up into pieces. I think by splitting up these forms of like social domination into like supposedly separate experiences, it reduces collective effort as people are now like somehow forced to choose one issue area to focus on over another. Yeah, that would be I think what I would add to what I said from a couple years ago.
I’ll hear people be like, well I’m queer, I’m disabled and I’m trans. And I’m like, hmm, and you completely forgot to mention that you’re a white bodied person who is a settler in a settler colonial state. And what does that mean and how does that intersect with the other parts of your identity? And what does that mean for the way that you experience your queerness or your transness or your disability? I find that very lacking. And I’m not saying that they’re lacking as a person but moreso that the understanding of how they sit in society is maybe not as robust as it could be.
Akane Kanai Yeah absolutely. So many things I think that we could continue talking about for awhile.
Gbonmi Olobudun Definitely. Definitely. Thank you so much for having me. I should have done this at the start but I also just want to acknowledge that like we are on Indigenous land right now. I believe we’re still within the Kulin nations, so yeah, shout out to, honestly, like so much of my personal journey through like decolonization and like understanding things like intersectionality and even my own personal relationship to my own culture and identity has been so shaped by the amazing leadership of Aboriginal people here on this continent. And so much of how I’ve been able to like, reclaim the parts of myself that I thought were lost or the parts of myself that I, that kind of, I didn’t have access to because of colonization, I’ve, because of the leadership and the example of Aboriginal people here has enabled me to make those connections and seek those things out for myself again. So yeah, I just wanted to acknowledge that, that this always was and always will be aboriginal land.
Akane Kanai Thanks Gbonmi, it’s a great note to end on.
Gbonmi Olobudun Thank you.
– CREDITS –
Thank you for listening to this podcast miniseries, Feminist Not Fearless. This was our fourth and final episode, and part of a multi-year project.
Sometimes the rhythms of our lives as they intersect with social media, push us to do things fast. This rhythm can make it seem as though there’s one ‘right’ way to be feminist, and as though intersectionality, as we discussed here, means just one thing or one way. Doing this podcast and this project has reminded me of how important it is to take your time to reflect and to make space. This goes for any political work and any work involving relationships and care. To make something together, we have to take risks and be brave in what we share as we listen to others. So I want to again thank my project participants for being so generous and courageous with sharing their experiences and time with me, over several years.
If you liked the podcast, please share it. This podcast was written by me, Akane Kanai, with the support of Monash University and the Australian Research Council.
Huge thanks to Gbonmi Olubudun and to Esther Alloun for appearing in this episode.
Emma Baumhofer is the show’s producer. Melissa May is our audio engineer. Music by Ben Hallinan. Natasha Zeng was research assistant for this project. Additional support from Gareth Popplestone and Doug Donaldson from the Monash Media Lab.
Further links
- Esther Alloun’s poetry and article on activism under settler colonialism
Digital Feminist Futures - Home of the Feminist Not Fearless Podcast 